Admin activity/Admin concerns?

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Echelon
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:07 am

Novakain wrote:
and ignoring them gets rid of the evidence
This doesn't remove any evidence at all..
First you copy the logs before you ignore them and then report with room,time etc.
Admins are going to have to go back and check logs regardless because a copy paste is incredibly easy to edit.
I'm referring to the big picture but honestly I don't think you're really understanding my point anyway so I'm not going to continue on this point any longer because saying the same thing over and over is getting boring. But I'm comfortable leaving it at that.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:09 am

Echelon wrote:
Novakain wrote:
and ignoring them gets rid of the evidence
This doesn't remove any evidence at all..
First you copy the logs before you ignore them and then report with room,time etc.
Admins are going to have to go back and check logs regardless because a copy paste is incredibly easy to edit.
I'm referring to the big picture but honestly I don't think you're really understanding my point anyway so I'm not going to continue on this point any longer because saying the same thing over and over is getting boring. But I'm comfortable leaving it at that.

:lol:
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:11 am

:biglol:
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:26 pm

how many times are users gonna have to make threads like this before the administration actually does something about it? i dont think i can count on both of my hands how many threads about this exact issue has been brought up, and how many times an admin or multiple admins said "we're working on it!"

and tbh i can attest to colby/acne's post 100%. there was times where she wouldnt play games with me or even DRAW just so she would be active on chat so there was at least ONE admin ready to take on some kind of responsibility. i used to joke and say "go off duty so we can play dragon nest" and she would ALWAYS tell me no. i hardly ever get on chat anymore and most of the time i see 1 admin and at least 3 off duty.

here's my suggestion: stop promoting your friends and get people who will actually be on chat and do the things they're supposed to do.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:43 pm

criminals wrote: here's my suggestion: stop promoting your friends and get people who will actually be on chat and do the things they're supposed to do.
I agree and feel very strongly for this 100% :( i could go on a rant about how strongly i feel about this but il keep that to myself lmao as i dont think its needed but yes, i agree with this statement
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:53 pm

sushi wrote:
criminals wrote: here's my suggestion: stop promoting your friends and get people who will actually be on chat and do the things they're supposed to do.
I agree and feel very strongly for this 100% :( i could go on a rant about how strongly i feel about this but il keep that to myself lmao as i dont think its needed but yes, i agree with this statement
By all means say whatever you want as long as it stays respectable and within the rules of WH. This topic has kind of merged into a topic that addresses all the issues that come from admins and not just specifically activity, so it might as well just come out now.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:03 pm

I'd just like to make a note that friends of current admins do not at all get special treatment, or promoted because of who they know. In fact, usually those of us who are friends with the applicant will refrain from voting at all. Before I was ever an admin and there were only nominations, that was when I noticed a lot of admins' friends being promoted.

On that note - I think something was also brought up earlier about not utilizing nominations anymore. Nominations are actually still a thing, it's just that no one ever does it. Therefore most of our new admins have to come from applications.

As for activity, all I can do is apologize on behalf of myself and the rest of the team. I won't bore anyone with details of why I've personally been a bit scarce, but as it's already been said we are currently actively discussing this and trying to work something out. I myself would like to make finding admins to fill in those particularly dead hours a priority. However, I'm not sure it's possible to ensure admins are on at all hours of the day/night. Then of course there's the fact that at certain times of the year, holidays mostly, activity will always be lower. I know it's frustrating when trolls or just troublesome users in general are around when no admins are, but I only ask for a bit of patience and understanding. The best thing to do is, as already mentioned, save logs, take screenshots, etc and then place them on ignore and encourage everyone else to do the same. You only run the risk of snapping back and thus getting in strife yourself if you do not ignore them. Of course, this does not eliminate the problem but it's at least a substitution. As soon as an admin is available, it will be dealt with ASAP. Having admins on hand is always preferable, but until we can improve this, it's the best we can do.

I won't bother touching on other points brought up, as I think they've all been addressed enough.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:40 pm

I dunno really, I can see this going both ways because as a user of Wolfhome you agree to follow the rules and as an Administrator of Wolfhome you agree to certain rules and it doesn't always happen or falls through. Nothing is perfect. However if there isn't an Administrator online you can always PM them and get the same results done as if you were to call them on chat. My problem honestly is the Administrators that come online to AFK instead of just not being on chat altogether until they can be active, it makes no sense to me. From what I've seen the only Admins that can be online a lot of the time are the people who don't have jobs and are not in school or below college etc. But that's because they have time and a lot of the Admins currently probably applied when they thought they would have the time but things changed. (Know that from experience too.)
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:27 pm

criminals wrote:how many times are users gonna have to make threads like this before the administration actually does something about it? i dont think i can count on both of my hands how many threads about this exact issue has been brought up, and how many times an admin or multiple admins said "we're working on it!"

and tbh i can attest to colby/acne's post 100%. there was times where she wouldnt play games with me or even DRAW just so she would be active on chat so there was at least ONE admin ready to take on some kind of responsibility. i used to joke and say "go off duty so we can play dragon nest" and she would ALWAYS tell me no. i hardly ever get on chat anymore and most of the time i see 1 admin and at least 3 off duty.

here's my suggestion: stop promoting your friends and get people who will actually be on chat and do the things they're supposed to do.
Ehh.. I'm really hesitant to say this, but here it goes.
Every time a user makes a topic, we work on it. Even now we are constantly going back and forth throwing around ideas.
Every time the administration improves something, something else needs to be fixed.
It's a constant. Nothing will be perfect, that's why we keep working on it. There will be more topics in the future. More progress is going to be made. More mistakes will be seen.
It sucks. This kind of responce. But it's what we got and it's as honest and straightforward as we can be.

As far as promoting friends... we actually give a fair chance to everyone.
We open applications and discuss each one - often times, friends of admins get more exposure, and as unfortunate as that is, it's the truth. The more active and involved in a community you are, the higher your chances of getting noticed become.
Naturally, with this comes negitive attention... and when we look at applications, the way you treat your peers, or even people you don't know plays a HUGE part.
It's NOT about just sitting on chat !
It's NOT about who is most active!
It's about quality and patience, and the ability to do good things for the community that make a person stand out.
If you're serious about being an administrator, you need to ask yourself... how do I treat others?

Nominations, as bonsai said, are open and available!
If you see someone being absolutely amazing, and active, and helpful... nominate them!
Root for them too! Send an alpha the logs, or screenshots!
Heck, write a dang book about how wonderful they are!

Then you can get YOUR voice heard in a positive way.
Win win :)
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:48 pm

but honestly this entire topic is kind of... exactly what we as a userbase mean?

victorian you comment on nearly all of these debate/information/request topics each time someone says something you think you can answer.
it's the same answer you've been giving since the beginning of this thread but worded just a little bit differently.

as much as i get that there's only so much to be done, there's also a point where what's been going on behind the scenes and what's being shown off to the public gets frustrating.

what we see is the admins talk about their daily lives with their groups of friends
what we see are the issues they talk about on the feelings/confessions/ect. thread.
what we see has little to nothing to do with the work that's going on
so when someone (such as an administrator) posts "we're working on it"
it's just frustrating and a little exhasperating.

sure, you guys are working on it, but that doesn't change the fact that we as a userbase are left in the dark and thus when these topics are brought up they are either A: put off until forgotten about or B: taken into consideration but never heard from again.

people have lives, yes, but the point of administrating a site is a second job. while you may not be getting paid, people are dishing out money on the regular to keep this boat floating. you guys are expected to be the face of the community in regards to new people/old users, and most of the time i honestly can't say i see anything good happen in chat or on forum regarding how anything is dealt with in the site.
and it's hard to make any type of position worth signing up for because of the bad reputation adminstration has + what we actually see, well. it only reinforces it.

favourism is a huge freakin issue here and it's absolutely astonishing to look at this site and have multiple bands of people voice this complaint, but it's still overlooked or a topic is locked because something someone doesnt like is said.

in recent years i've had little to no good experiences dealing with users or the administration when something has happened to me or people i know.
and it's just come to the point where i don't know what else to say but damn. :/
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:20 pm

Werewolf wrote:but honestly this entire topic is kind of... exactly what we as a userbase mean?

victorian you comment on nearly all of these debate/information/request topics each time someone says something you think you can answer.
it's the same answer you've been giving since the beginning of this thread but worded just a little bit differently.

as much as i get that there's only so much to be done, there's also a point where what's been going on behind the scenes and what's being shown off to the public gets frustrating.
/: I comment because I want to help, my intention isn't to seem repetitive; in fact I try to be honest and upfront every time I post.
I've been explaining different situations, yes - and yes, the end result is the same... however, it's better than no one responding at all.

When I am allowed to say more, I will - but I have actually very little power here, so this is the best I, personally, got.
I want change to happen too. More than anything. From the top, especially.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:52 pm

I apologize as this is a bit off topic but still relative. why is everything so hush-hush? why can't admins have discussions WITH the userbase instead of saying "we're discussing it and you're going to have to wait for what we come up with." would it be okay for the administration to bring up their concerns with certain topics with the userbase instead of coming to a conclusion by themselves after discussing it where we can't see? there are some things that can be solved by putting more eyes on it, because everyone has their own perspective. plus the userbase is why the admins exist. why not REALLY include them and do more than just listen to them? I honestly believe that would help to alleviate a lot of stress on both sides.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:55 pm

selamar wrote:I apologize as this is a bit off topic but still relative. why is everything so hush-hush? why can't admins have discussions WITH the userbase instead of saying "we're discussing it and you're going to have to wait for what we come up with." would it be okay for the administration to bring up their concerns with certain topics with the userbase instead of coming to a conclusion by themselves after discussing it where we can't see? there are some things that can be solved by putting more eyes on it, because everyone has their own perspective. plus the userbase is why the admins exist. why not REALLY include them and do more than just listen to them? I honestly believe that would help to alleviate a lot of stress on both sides.

This this this 100000%

This is a main point in this whole topic, you say "we are discussing it" but then users dont hear anything forever and the only conclusion that we can logically draw when we have no other information is that its forgotten about.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:06 pm

Updated the original post!
Echelon wrote:EDITv2: Went ahead and added "Admin concerns" to the topic title because this topic has branched off into a number of different issues that users seem to be having with the administration. This is totally fine! I just figured I'd change the topic title as well so users don't feel obliged to only post regarding activity.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:32 pm

Xina wrote:
selamar wrote:I apologize as this is a bit off topic but still relative. why is everything so hush-hush? why can't admins have discussions WITH the userbase instead of saying "we're discussing it and you're going to have to wait for what we come up with." would it be okay for the administration to bring up their concerns with certain topics with the userbase instead of coming to a conclusion by themselves after discussing it where we can't see? there are some things that can be solved by putting more eyes on it, because everyone has their own perspective. plus the userbase is why the admins exist. why not REALLY include them and do more than just listen to them? I honestly believe that would help to alleviate a lot of stress on both sides.

This this this 100000%

This is a main point in this whole topic, you say "we are discussing it" but then users dont hear anything forever and the only conclusion that we can logically draw when we have no other information is that its forgotten about.
I wish there was more transparency. Honestly, I think it is an issue of having a poorly defined "line" when it comes to what is allowed to be said publicly and what is not. This is no one's fault, it's just that we have a million situations that we have to individually ask ourselves "Is this OK to publicize?", and often these things lead to grey areas that make it hard to decide. I will suggest that we try to make this more clear so that we can (potentially) give you the more in-depth, transparent updates you want.

As for this:
would it be okay for the administration to bring up their concerns with certain topics with the userbase instead of coming to a conclusion by themselves after discussing it where we can't see?
I think this would have both negative and positive effects. Users who have not been an administrator before do not understand what is entailed in the administrator position, and how the potential outcome of the suggestion would either hinder or benefit the site or its structure. Even if a person has some understanding, they cannot fully understand it because they cannot see Wolfhome's specific administrator guidelines, protocol, past situations that dealt with similar circumstances, etc. This includes administrators of other websites. For example, Ourani and PosePro are ran completely differently from Wolfhome, and when I was promoted here the only experience I was able to carry over was the investigative nature and critical thinking that is involved with certain situations. Everything else I learned, including how a situation "should" be dealt with and the tools provided to carry out action, went out the window. Anyway, back to the main point - if we open up certain subjects for discussion between both administrators and users, there are going to be mixed interests. It would cause a lot of strain. Something that is really not possible from an administrator's standpoint may be loved by the community, and when the administration turn that idea down, it will be "Why didn't you listen to us or take into account our opinions? I thought this was supposed to be a collaborative effort." I am not saying that not everyone is able to be unbiased or see both sides, but there will be a clear difference in interest and experience on matters that require experience. Perhaps we are not being as descriptive as you all would like with our reasons for implementation or rejection? If you have any suggestions on how we could better describe why we did something a certain way besides being more transparent (since that is an issue in itself that is already being looked at), please let us know. This would be a really nice thing to do with some situations, though, and I can suggest that we try to do this more with things that affect the more small-scale issues.

Then again, in a way, we already do this. Administrators voice their personal opinions on certain subjects when they can. The users are completely open to refuting or supporting their input. There is no verdict until the subject has been fully discussed and evaluated by the administration, so please don't feel as though you can't freely debate a subject. You may even try to overturn the decision. I love debate topics as long as they are constructive. It opens a lot of doors to learning new things and being able to understand certain viewpoints, so please, say what's on your mind.

I think another big thing is the public response. I'm not gonna lie, this thread is cringe-y lol. It sucks being beat down like this as a team, and makes me worry about things that I personally can't control (like others' activity and my own based on my schedule, and the things we can share with users). It's hard not to look like we are acting illogically or ignoring suggestions or input by users when you cannot see what our discussion is like... Which, again, goes back to my previous question at the end of the first paragraph.

We are more than happy to work with you guys on stuff, though, and encourage all feedback... even blunt feedback like what's posted in this topic. I just ask that it please be constructive, we cannot improve off of vague insults. ):

That said, please suggest any other ways to relieve stress... It really stinks.

Edit
On a side note, I admire Victorian for responding to users consistently and agree that it's hard not to be repetitive in these situations, especially when we don't have as much to work with as we'd like. She takes it upon herself to try to help others understand or to at least acknowledge where there is a problem, and as a user I would prefer that over thoughtless replies or a lack thereof entirely.
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