Admin activity/Admin concerns?

This section is for posting questions regarding Wolfhome, workings or details, or simply needing to contact one of the administration. Bans or warnings given, whether temporary or permanent, will NOT be discussed, and topics containing such material will be immediately deleted.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:24 am

Victorian wrote:Hmm.. another potential problem I see is that this doesn't help with actually covering hours no one is available.
Most admins get on at the same time because of their time zone similarities... so just because everyone clocked in a certain number of hours doesn't promise full coverage...
that's what I'm saying, thank you for simplifying it lol
overall, finding people who are willing to be admins in those timezones can be minimal, and then they have to go through a process of getting rejected or accepted, which cuts down the ratio more.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:26 am

Vitae wrote:
Victorian wrote:Hmm.. another potential problem I see is that this doesn't help with actually covering hours no one is available.
Most admins get on at the same time because of their time zone similarities... so just because everyone clocked in a certain number of hours doesn't promise full coverage...
that's what I'm saying, thank you for simplifying it lol
overall, finding people who are willing to be admins in those timezones can be minimal, and then they have to go through a process of getting rejected or accepted, which cuts down the ratio more.
Lmfao simple is my middle name - but actually just happened to post seconds after you so... great minds just think alike I guess :)
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:33 am

Spoiler! :
Echelon wrote:
Novakain wrote:So using 3 admins as an average you would need 504 Hours of coverage in a given week.. workload being split between the 28 Admins Bean counted.. thats 18 hours of work per week required from each admin to keep this thread happy.
Kind of crazy for a volunteer job
Just before I comment, I want you to know I did read all of your post and you do make a valid point, I won't disregard that.

But for the part I specifically quoted: it's a volunteer position that the admins agree to do. I dunno how many times I have to say that but no one forces and admin to be an admin, they agree to do it. Like any volunteer position, you are required to show up and do the work - just because it's volunteer and you technically don't get paid for it doesn't mean you can simply slack off and not do it.
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The thing is they are volunteers yes but I don't think they signed anything that said you must spend 18 hours in chat a week on top of duties you have been assigned on the forum.
If they signed up for this volunteer position knowing that and they didn't show up for the 18 hours ... That's different.
But that's not the case.

All in all what do you think is the solution Echelon?
More admins (quality admins now just everyone who applies)
Schedule each admin for their 18+ hours of chat duty?
Or people actually using the tools given to them.
Admins don't need to be on for a report to be given.
Also, usually when you have to use the ignore button you usually have enough evidence already otherwise why are you ignoring a user? And like it was mentioned before admins can get the logs required if necessary.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:42 am

The whole "late hours" thing has always been a problem for wolfhome and I've always noticed it due to living in Australia and I normally don't sleep until late even regardless of work the next day - that's literally the only reason I've noticed it all this time. I see how long the chat goes without an admin. But like I've said before, I can understand not having an admin on at that time, while it still definitely sucks when there are issues and a chat should always have an admin available regardless, I do understand why there isn't one at during those hours.

I actually remember when Acne was on the team, she was always online like she states. I loved her mentality of always wanting to keep the chat safe JUST IN CASE. Obviously I can understand that not everyone is able to do what she did (stay up until someone else got online) but even when she did it, it's really not fair to only have one admin on every single night during those hours simply to make sure the chat is safe. In an ideal world there would be multiple admins on during those hours. The fact that wolfhome has had this problem for literally years now is also another real problem. I don't buy this whole "it can't be fixed within a few days/weeks" because this has been a problem for years, that's more than enough time to fix that kind of thing.

I definitely understand that fixing activity as a whole will need to take some time and I really hope to see improvements in the coming months or else this topic will just feel completely void. But as for admins covering those dead hours.. If it was a real priority on the chat (which is should be), it would've been fixed a long time ago, but it wasn't and it still isn't fixed.

Novakain wrote:All in all what do you think is the solution Echelon?
More admins (quality admins now just everyone who applies)
Schedule each admin for their 18+ hours of chat duty?
Or people actually using the tools given to them.
Admins don't need to be on for a report to be given.
Also, usually when you have to use the ignore button you usually have enough evidence already otherwise why are you ignoring a user? And like it was mentioned before admins can get the logs required if necessary.
I've already gone over multiple things you've listed here. Using the ignore feature for example, it is a quick fix for such a small problem but not everyone can ignore said user, because if this user is to be reported to an admin (like they rightfully should be) someone has to keep them unignored in order to give all the appropriate evidence to the admin. Giving half the logs would still be fine but giving half the logs instead of full logs could be the difference between a warning and a ban, you never know how far a user will go.

I don't think admins should have a set in stone amount of hours to work per week - honestly I don't think anyone actually thinks that. It's more of a guideline for what would be deemed acceptable (it's like I work 9-5 each day at my job but on Fridays I generally go home early, I still get paid for the entire day). My honest solution for this is admins need to stop relying so much on applications and nominations. Go back to the old way of doing things, promote people based on their activity and their general knowledge of the site. They should also bring back trial runs (which is what the original AA position was used for so many years ago), promote users to AA to test them on chat and see how they go, if they do well then when they're ready they can progress to the gamma position, if they don't do so well as an AA then they simply go back to being a subordinate - no harm done.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:44 am

I didn't mean to upset anyone when I mentioned busy and inactive admins stepping down as a suggestion. I realize that now perhaps that suggestion wouldn't work, but I wasn't meaning to distrupt or upset anyone with that suggestion. This situation is quite difficult but I do hope it gets better and that things improve. I cannot suggest anything else really other than what I said in my previous post, but fingers crossed there will be a solution. :)
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:50 am

Giving half the logs would still be fine but giving half the logs instead of full logs could be the difference between a warning and a ban, you never know how far a user will go.
I don't see how this would change the outcome of a ban if Alphas can log check and see the other half of of the logs.. There might be less logs because the troll no longer has anything to troll since they were ignored.... so ignoring the user sooner would be better for the chat as a whole.

My honest solution for this is admins need to stop relying so much on applications and nominations.
The thing about this is though, why should they have to approach people to become an admin?
Applications are opened for a reason.... anyone wishing to become and admin should apply then and there not wait to hear from another Admin... It would sort of be like unwanted solicitation. (Hey wanna join my guild?!!)
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:57 am

I get why it was suggested - if you're not contributing any form of effort or work, and you can, then I highly suggest doing so. However, there's SO much work going on the forums, most of my work was forum-based. Even 99% of chat work is forum-based, to be honest. I was just counteracting stating why it's not always a plausible solution. Someone who's not on the chat, may be extremely active on the forums, and we not know it.

My only main concern is what I brought up before, where are we going to find the people to cover these hours? That's the main question in my head.

posting a bad suggestion isn't bad - posting any form of suggestion, rejected or accepted, is the whole point of a discussion. I don't think anyone should feel attacked or whatnot, unless someone's being intentionally rude, which isn't cool.

as far as not relying on applications and nominations.. that's how a volunteer job works, also it's how an actual job works as far as I know. How else do they see if user's are capable, if they want to become an administrator? Watching a user is already something the administration does. Reviewing the applications, and being unbiased on them, is something that's already done. Possibly accidentally promoting someone who doesn't want to be an admin (this is if they didn't base off applications/nominations) can be a chaotic situation I think, if it was just a "I want to help!" walk up type promotion. Not everyone is meant to be an admin, not everyone wants to be an admin.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:58 am

Novakain wrote:
Giving half the logs would still be fine but giving half the logs instead of full logs could be the difference between a warning and a ban, you never know how far a user will go.
I don't see how this would change the outcome of a ban if Alphas can log check and see the other half of of the logs.. There might be less logs because the troll no longer has anything to troll since they were ignored.... so ignoring the user sooner would be better for the chat as a whole.
Why make an alpha do a log check when you can simply give the logs to the next admin that's available and get it dealt with asap if they are provided with the appropriate information? So, I disagree with 'ignoring sooner would be better for the chat as a whole', why should that trouble maker of a user get to cause more problems for a longer period of time? Why should the solution be "every user should just ignore this person until an admin is available"? Why have admins at all if that's the mentality, that an ignore can fix all your problems?
Novakain wrote:
My honest solution for this is admins need to stop relying so much on applications and nominations.
The thing about this is though, why should they have to approach people to become an admin?
Applications are opened for a reason.... anyone wishing to become and admin should apply then and there not wait to hear from another Admin... It would sort of be like unwanted solicitation. (Hey wanna join my guild?!!)
Maybe because that method clearly is not working? Hence, kind of the whole reason for this topic. There's clearly a problem and the current ways of going about things aren't working, something needs to change.


EDIT: to reply to Vitae - obviously the user would be asked if they would like a position on the team and briefed about it before being outright promoted. Like everyone else they'd still get a choice in the matter. Back in the day there was no applications or nominations and it worked just fine back then. Wolfhome actually never had such big problems like it does today in that aspect so I simply don't understand why it can't work again now still keeping applications/nominations as well, just not relying on them so much. Literally having all options available would not hurt anyone or hinder any process.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:14 am

Why make an alpha do a log check when you can simply give the logs to the next admin that's available and get it dealt with asap if they are provided with the appropriate information? So, I disagree with 'ignoring sooner would be better for the chat as a whole', why should that trouble maker of a user get to cause more problems for a longer period of time? Why should the solution be "every user should just ignore this person until an admin is available"? Why have admins at all if that's the mentality, that an ignore can fix all your problems?
You believe one thing i believe the other. Lets wait to see what an admin thinks of the two ways to handle the situation and then both abide by what they say? Since really its their workload in the end and our goal is to make their job easier? Right?

Maybe because that method clearly is not working? Hence, kind of the whole reason for this topic. There's clearly a problem and the current ways of going about things aren't working, something needs to change.

So then perhaps an added feature to where someone can flag themselves as wanting to become and admin? Just a little check box in account settings that puts a little star or something somewhere that admins can easily view and then watch them from afar to see if they are worthy.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:21 am

Novakain wrote:
Why make an alpha do a log check when you can simply give the logs to the next admin that's available and get it dealt with asap if they are provided with the appropriate information? So, I disagree with 'ignoring sooner would be better for the chat as a whole', why should that trouble maker of a user get to cause more problems for a longer period of time? Why should the solution be "every user should just ignore this person until an admin is available"? Why have admins at all if that's the mentality, that an ignore can fix all your problems?
You believe one thing i believe the other. Lets wait to see what an admin thinks of the two ways to handle the situation and then both abide by what they say? Since really its their workload in the end and our goal is to make their job easier? Right?
I mean, obviously this comes down to an opinion based decision everything does on wolfhome but there's already enough support from users who agree there need to be more admins and the late hours need to be addressed so you'd figure that should be enough to get things moving. Admins have already commented saying they're working on it so your suggested method is kind of void at this point.
Novakain wrote:
Maybe because that method clearly is not working? Hence, kind of the whole reason for this topic. There's clearly a problem and the current ways of going about things aren't working, something needs to change.
So then perhaps an added feature to where someone can flag themselves as wanting to become and admin? Just a little check box in account settings that puts a little star or something somewhere that admins can easily view and then watch them from afar to see if they are worthy.
As for the feature - that could also work and would be pretty effective I think but who knows if/when it could be added with UD being mia all the time, I'm sure that kind of thing would need coding that the current admins don't have access too (unsure about BugFinder). At least with going back to how things used to be AND keeping applications/nominations as an option also, no coding would need to be changed and it's proven to work once before for a significant period of time.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:41 am

Admins have already commented saying they're working on it so your suggested method is kind of void at this point.
Not sure how my method is void?
Having admins on at all times is currently being worked on but for the time being.... there is still going to be times when there is no admins. So that means the correct method of reporting a user when no admins are on needs to be addressed.

We need admin input on which method the user base should use if they encounter a troll or whatever the case my be since apparently it is not clear on what we should do.

Ignore them or not ignore them and continue to collect logs which.. really is feeding a troll.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:44 am

The other problem is that there aren't as many people on during the late hours, so another thing would be for those who want to be an admin who are on during those times to apply for the position. which doesnt happen as often as one may hope. we have a handful of "night shift" admins and obviously we need more. the majority of our users are US based, thus resulting in those hours not being covered 100% of the time. Like it's been stated before and as you all know, admin positions are volunteer jobs.. meaning we put our time into the chat when we are able to. somwtimea it doesnt always work out and it doesnt mean we dont enjoy moderating. it just means life is catching us off guard and we arent able to get on during every free moment of our day.

we care about what you guys think, and we are working towards a solution.
Novakain brought up a good point with nipping trouble in the bud. if you do encounter a troll, then you send us all the logs you have before ignoring. you can include what room you were in and around what time it was along with their username and it will be dealt with. it doesnt mean we dont care for your concerns by "making you ignpre your problems" you are indirectly contronting them by coming to us. we want you to have a good chat experience and if someone is out there trying to be a debby downer then the best solution is to place them on ignore.

sorry, writing from mobile so im sloppier than usual. that's my two cents on the matter.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:52 am

idk not reading all of this because that's a hell of a lot to read
PLEASE don't get offended because this is changing everything around for this topic, i just had it in my head for most of today and i can't keep it in anymore. it's more of a suggestion than anything.

there are a LOT of people i know that are dedicated or would like to be part of a team but for whatever reason don't get accepted. perhaps giving them a shot to see what they are capable of would be a new way to test out people? at least give them a chance. see if they can cover what some of the current members can't accomplish at the moment. even if they are only aa or stay aa for a longer time than past aa's. give people that are dedicated and want the job and know they can do it to have a chance.
myself, for example, i'm on at least 10 hours a day if not more because all i have going on in my life is online schooling so i can be on the majority of the day. i've had some aa training on other chatlands (sirisola, ourani, feral awakening). i just don't ever get a chance to prove what i'm capable of here and i'm sure there are plenty others that feel the same way.


coll out
you can pm me if you want to respond and not make it a big deal on here 'cause i'm sure echelon doesn't want this topic to be swayed so i'm sorry for starting the sway i just wanted to get this out because it's killing me
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:53 am

Novakain wrote:
Admins have already commented saying they're working on it so your suggested method is kind of void at this point.
Not sure how my method is void?
Having admins on at all times is currently being worked on but for the time being.... there is still going to be times when there is no admins. So that means the correct method of reporting a user when no admins are on needs to be addressed.

We need admin input on which method the user base should use if they encounter a troll or whatever the case my be since apparently it is not clear on what we should do.

Ignore them or not ignore them and continue to collect logs which.. really is feeding a troll.
Both methods are deemed acceptable, but there's no guarantee that every single user online is going to ignore the user and someone still has to report them for them to get punished. Also users aren't told they -have- to ignore someone, it's just seen as a quick fix for a troublesome user and depending on the severity of it would also determine if they get ignored or not.

If someone is simply spamming/flooding the chat, I pay them no mind. I don't ignore them, I just take the logs and report them to an admin when one is available. But what if someone was saying things such as death and hack threats or talking about murder, rape and lots of other triggering topics in a brash manner? I normally ignore users like that because that is downright awful but that user is one that definitely needs to be reported asap (more so than the user spamming/flooding) and ignoring them gets rid of the evidence. Sure, having even one logs of a user talking like that is enough to get them punished but like I said - one log could be the difference between a warning and a ban, I'd much rather have a user like that banned asap instead of a prolonged punishment due to waiting on the appropriate resources (aka waiting for an alpha to get online to do a log check), that however is my opinion although I know of many who also agree.

Users such as the latter example don't happen often but they do still happen and that's the main reason why admins should be attentive on chat at all hours - that's what I mean by saying it's void because the real solution to this is having admins on at all hours instead. I guess you could say this topic has merged into admin activity as well as covering the late hours considering it's been an issue as well lately.
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Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:04 am

and ignoring them gets rid of the evidence
This doesn't remove any evidence at all..
First you copy the logs before you ignore them and then report with room,time etc.
Admins are going to have to go back and check logs regardless because a copy paste is incredibly easy to edit.
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