Partners & Siblings/Family on The Administration Team (Poll Closed)

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vereena
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:44 pm

For those that saying conflict of interest:

You have that issue anywhere and everywhere, no matter where or who or how they may be involved with someone. If I was an admin and another unbeknown to me admin came to me and said, “I think we should do it THIS way,” and I don’t agree — conflict of interest and I don’t even know them (an example, of course).

It’s not really fair to use this when the administration team, just like us EC members, through communication and working together become friends. It’s weird that drawing the line is at family members and spouses (who I feel like, most of the time, are the first ones to out their s/o if they aren’t acting right).

If they have a way to ensure no favoritism is happening by User A voting for User B then, to me, that probably sounds like User B deserves it. Even on EC (which isn’t as serious as administration), if we feel like we are too close to someone, we can abstain from putting a vote in or going with majority because our opinion could be biased. We had to double check if it was okay to vote for an EC as MoTM. I feel like people are trying really hard to switch WH around to be a more welcoming space, while also giving themselves some lee-way to accept MORE people to pick from as WH is a shallow pool as is.

They are trying to find ways to accept more people so more administration is there for us, as some of our complaints were that administration activity was lacking. I also know a lot of family members and s/o’s who work together, and also S/O’s who GET their partner a job within their working place. The only difference is that those jobs there are SO many people it can be difficult to pinpoint inappropriate behavior, favoritism, etc whereas WH is tight knit and these things can be seen and spoken upon by members if issues started.

Like I said, if it became a problem, they can get rid of this rule as easily as they may incorporate it. I just feel like it’s worth giving a chance because we wanted more administration active, and WH has a tiny pool of people, and it’s being made even tinier by having these other restrictions.
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briar
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:23 pm

Just in response to the above ^ I don't want to quote the whole thing and clog up the topic with super long posts
I agree with all of the statements on friends, becoming friends with coworkers is inevitable when working closely together.
Where I have a differing opinion is specifically significant others being direct supervisors/subordinates, in my experience that is when it quickly devolves into "well, my partner didn't handle that right but I know their intentions are good because I know them best, so I'll let it slide this time."

I also wanted to respond to a specific part of your post (I hope that's okay, I don't want it to come across as me calling out! I just wanted to make clear that I am replying to a specific section)
gringo wrote:I just feel like it’s worth giving a chance because we wanted more administration active, and WH has a tiny pool of people, and it’s being made even tinier by having these other restrictions.
With this I have always had the question, why can we not just simply promote other members of the community, friendship or relationship status notwithstanding? Why does it need to be someone's friend or s/o or family member? I've always wanted to ask this because if it's "well, because that's my friend/partner/sister/brother/etc and I know they'd be a good admin!" that could pretty easily be bias, you know? I hope this doesn't come across as I'm demanding answers of you or your post :( I just meant that your point is one I see a lot in regard to this kind of thing and I have thoughts on it!

Anyways I just wanted to add that on, like I said I'm all for whatever's decided but I think you'd pretty quickly re-raise the issues of ganging up and cliques with allowing things like that on the team openly, particularly with s/o
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vereena
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:33 pm

briar wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:23 pm
Just in response to the above ^ I don't want to quote the whole thing and clog up the topic with super long posts
I agree with all of the statements on friends, becoming friends with coworkers is inevitable when working closely together.
Where I have a differing opinion is specifically significant others being direct supervisors/subordinates, in my experience that is when it quickly devolves into "well, my partner didn't handle that right but I know their intentions are good because I know them best, so I'll let it slide this time."

I also wanted to respond to a specific part of your post (I hope that's okay, I don't want it to come across as me calling out! I just wanted to make clear that I am replying to a specific section)
gringo wrote:I just feel like it’s worth giving a chance because we wanted more administration active, and WH has a tiny pool of people, and it’s being made even tinier by having these other restrictions.
With this I have always had the question, why can we not just simply promote other members of the community, friendship or relationship status notwithstanding? Why does it need to be someone's friend or s/o or family member? I've always wanted to ask this because if it's "well, because that's my friend/partner/sister/brother/etc and I know they'd be a good admin!" that could pretty easily be bias, you know? I hope this doesn't come across as I'm demanding answers of you or your post :( I just meant that your point is one I see a lot in regard to this kind of thing and I have thoughts on it!

Anyways I just wanted to add that on, like I said I'm all for whatever's decided but I think you'd pretty quickly re-raise the issues of ganging up and cliques with allowing things like that on the team openly, particularly with s/o

Definitely okay! I don't think they don't/can't promote other members of the community, or are simply trying to promote someone's friend or their s/o member. I think it was just a general question of like: if two people applied (which the admin applications were/are open), are they allowed to accept both (even if they are partners, AND both are GOOD candidates or can they only take /one/ since this rule applies. Same for family members) I'm not an admin so I don't want to directly speak for why this post was made, but I knew that a post was made for EC right around the time deciding whether or not EC members could vote if another EC member was nominated for MoTM (or if EC could/should be considered).

I also think like maybe if the scenario was that someone put in an application that was either a) related to someone on the current team or b) s/o to someone on the current team and was a good candidate, should they be allowed to join since these restrictions are in place (and I can't speak on whether their s/o or w/e nominated them, or if someone unrelated to them nominated them since applications were open). I don't know specifically how admins go through their applications, but it has to be a majority vote for EC so IF that is the same for admins, their s/o or family member/friend is just one vote compared to the other people.

I also don't know if this post is just for applications submitted or nominations, but if it's for nominations, I would have to say it should ALSO be majority vote even a personal reference was who nominated them in the first place. I definitely don't agree that someone should be able to say "well, they're my s/o, friend, family member so I think they would be great!" There has to be some kind of implementation for that.
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:48 pm

Even though I voted against it due to my own personal experiences that have shaped my opinion of such, I'm still open minded to the idea that couples/friends could possibly work together and be a great asset on an admin team and it'd be a bit tunnel visioned to deny that any friends/couples would make for a bad admin simply based on their relationship status or relationship with their colleagues. As long as it doesn't turn into a cliquey-fest of friends and couples ganging up on members because I've seen that happen where a couple dislike someone and thus, give that person a hard time and encourage others to jump on the same train as them. If we can stray away from that, then it's fine and do-able. I'm just worried, personally, that we'll get a lot of "this person is my s/o so they should be an admin like me" which gives them an automated pass on the admin team or others things such like, or that we'll see more rutheless or biased behaviour - which WH doesn't need from the things I've read. I hope that makes sense and gives more insight as to what I mean.
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:16 pm

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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:31 pm

@Artemis I would have to disagree that family members are stuck for life, and that any arguments wouldn't spill over to the forums, considering family members (unless they live very far from each other) tend to live together if they're in close proximity, so anything happening in their household, could just as easily spill over as anything in a relationship, and have just as negative affects. I have witnessed that on chatlands before with just in disputes with each other and it spilling into friendships, because of all the drama some people like to stir up. I think it should all be case by case truthfully, but I genuinely don't care the result either way as it doesn't effect me. I think it should be more based on whether or not individual's are living together, because that can effect a lot more than having a relationship(family/friend/partner) than if they were long distance, or lived separately.
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:34 pm

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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:35 pm

So I just want to say...that this has NEVER been an issue.... when Wolfhome was founded almost all of the admins were couple/partner pairs.

Like... why almost 23 years later do we want to bring this up?

Just no, no. It's a complete Non-issue.
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Artemis
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:42 pm

I don't necessarily think that saying something just shouldn't be brought up now because it wasn't an issue 23 years ago in a completely different social climate is the best way of looking at it; particularly since it actually has been a very real issue for many users, and those users that have experienced the backlash or negative affects of these things being permitted have a very real and significant opinion based on firsthand experience.

That said, I agree on a case by case basis
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:46 pm

I think saying that partners are not the same of family members is.. not accurate. Your partner is just as important as any family member, and you can just as easily cut off blood family, as those you choose to have in your household. Spats can be just as bad with brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, as it can the person you fall in love with, it can be resolved, and it can be tarnished.

I think genuinely to make it fair, and not punish community members for who they choose to be and live with, is case by case, because not every individual is the same, and if there's a problem, it should be reported and we should have reputable enough administrator's to handle it if it was to ever pop up. If not, then the administration is failing, not the system.

(p.s. I haven't read replies from above this yet, I'm working on it)
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:47 pm

yeah, I would be open to allowing it on a case by case basis. it seems wrong to either allow it or not allow it at all
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:58 pm

I mean, I kind of had problems in the past regaurding power couples, but I kind of agree with @Artemis and @mithril that if they have problems with eachother, it doesnt end up with bringing family or relationship drama on to chatlands and instead, keeping that thing between them. But sometimes things happen and it gets slipped through the grapevine and then all of a sudden its a chatlands war against one side or the other. Just like normally, there should be background checks on them to make sure they haven''t "done anything bad" but as well as on bringing big, and overdramatized problems about the relationship with anyone on chatlands.
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:09 pm

I say yes. I understand conflicts between friends and partners on teams, irl or otherwise, and I've seen clownery on chat mod teams firsthand. But that's the word, team. In a group as diverse as WH's current crew of mods, and with how vocal the community is, I feel like any power grabs or conflicts of interest or bias won't last long, if at all; the bias/etc can't possibly reach all corners of the group. And the userbase won't sleep on a mod acting up, and we all know it, that's partly why we're here, to make sure it doesn't happen, one way or another. The mods aren't ganging up on us or plotting against users. This thread is proof that they want feedback. If they planned to implement this behind our backs™ or to keep the restriction, either would've happened by now, yeah?

If someone becomes an issue and starts becoming detrimental to the admin team's efforts of keeping this a safe, fun and orderly place, demotion is a vote and a few clicks away, right? And WELL ahead of letting someone clown their way into a position of power, isn't that what AA is for? Trial periods for moderation, where you can only be actively moderating if a gamma or higher is on too (iirc)? (And I'm not saying anyone's been saying things like this lmao, but) It's way more than "ah! this pair (siblings, s/os, whathaveyou) is now a pair of rabid scheming gammas with a moderate amount of power. What will they do next!!!111one". There's always been a process to application, acceptance, and promotions, including not allowing biased voting on such things. They keep saying that, and I believe it, b/c WH probably would've died off entirely had such things been allowed consistently for the last 20+ years.

People earn their way into the team, or they fall out of it. Be they unfit, or simply not ready at the time, or they change their mind or need to do other things instead, etc. That's how we cultivate teams like what we have rn, and how the mods that return get back in: because they're willing to volunteer their time, they're fit for the job, and experienced. They know their way around the chat and they get to help upkeep a community they care about. I think anyone should have that opportunity, if they want in. Even if they've got a partner or family member on the team, they ought to know that their new position is their thing alone, and their actions alone determine whether or not they keep it.

I think that's something we're missing here, we automatically assume that an aforementioned pair will be inseparable, bounce things off each other constantly, and remain attached at the hip, leading to bias and distractions. That's when you step in. If they can prove themselves as individuals, as we ought to be treating them, I don't see why they shouldn't be given a chance.
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Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:14 pm

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that family members resolve things easily. That's definitely not the case all the time and my brother (was) on chats; he caused a LOT of issues on Chatlands for many, many years. Did that affect the way I am on Chatlands? No. Did I take his side in things? Absolutely not. Are we close? Absolutely not.

But I've seen it and experienced it where one family member starts hating X thing and so the other family member does as well because of their bias, then they both end up quitting. Happened on chats and IRL in real jobs.

I think I'd agree with the statement that no admin can be above their partner/family member in ranking. Not just because it can cause issues, but say a Beta and Helper were married. The Beta might leak sensitive info to the Helper and we'd never know because they can look at the same computer.

I also like the idea of if there is a break-up or falling out between admins, that they both go on temporary hiatus to decide if they can be amicable or if one/both needs to step down.
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